Moderator: Welcome to Capitol Chat, I'm your moderator, The Olympian Political Editor Brad Shannon. Our guest today is Senate Minority Leader Bill Finkbeiner, a Republican serving in his third Senate term from Kirkland. He first joined the Legislature in 1993 as a Democrat but switched parties. A property manager by occupation, Finkbeiner represents the 45th Legislative District, which takes in Woodinville, Duvall, Carnation and parts of Kirkland and Redmond.

He served as Senate majority leader for one session, in 2004, before Democrats took back control of the Senate last fall. He leads a caucus outnumbered 26-23 by Democrats but used what he often calls a "philosophical majority" of conservatives in the Senate to defeat a gay-rights bill, a stem-cell research bill and to hold as hostage one of the major election reform bills so his party's activists could push Democrats for other elections changes.

Finkbeiner: First, let me say something about that introduction. The stem cell bill and the gay rights bill got written about a lot but there were a lot of others we were able to stop or significantly amend. I think killing the changes to the worker's comp they wanted was much more important to our caucus. We were also able to hold tax increases down even though we couldn't kill them.

Moderator: With Democrats in control of both chambers of the Legislature, how do you rate your party's work this session? What were your biggest victories and losses?

Finkbeiner: Our focus has been on improving the business climate, trying to ensure that we're growing opportunity and increasing jobs. So some of our wins were the retro bill which would have made it hard for small businesses to hold down their worker's comp premiums. The bill was aimed at trying to hurt businesses that traditionally support Republicans.

That was a big win for us. Another big win was holding back the pay-or-play bill which would have significantly increased health care costs. We've been trying to hold back that increase by holding back the number of government mandates.

Other wins were getting the performance audits at transportation -- a very important issue if we're going to invest more money. We want to see it spent well.

Moderator: Were there big losses?

Finkbeiner: There were several losses that made the business climate in this state more difficult. For instance, the unemployment insurance bill that undid a lot of the reforms we had just put in. Businesses aren't necessarily paying for it right now, but it set up a system that was unsustainable, using one-time federal dollars. It's a system where employers are going to have to pay more in the future.

We believed that a 7 percent growth in our state budget was reasonable, but the Democrats decided to grow the budget even faster, at 12 percent, four times the rate of inflation. We want to set up a sustainable budget in this state. The decision was made by Democrats to underfund pension contributions. For the first time in a long time, the budget passed on a party-line vote.

David, Bainbridge Island: Will the Senate Republican caucus again in 2006 attack Democrats for supporting the bipartisan gas-tax increase, just as it did in 2004?

Finkbeiner: No more than the Democrats attack Republicans for supporting the bipartisan tax increase. Gregoire attacked Rossi for supporting that tax increase. Sen. Jim Horn, who proposed that increase, was defeated primarily by an opponent who focused on transportation issues. It's hard for us to say unilaterally that we're going to take that off the table.

Lance, Lacey: I heard the comments the House republicans made prior to the vote on the new gas tax (Republicans would not vote in favor of the gas tax if the general tax increases were not dropped). I want to know what happened. It seems that you guys are no more trustworthy than any other politican now. Can you honestly expect rank-and-file Republicans to continue to support you so-called Republicans after this? I guess my wife and I will have to forgo our prescriptions (I'll be sure to have the doctors put you skunks in Olympia on our death certificates as cause of death).

Finkbeiner: There's a softball. Different Republicans have different criteria for what they needed to support the gas tax. Not all did, in fact most, voted against it. Our most important goal was to get performance audits for the Department of Transportation. And we got that. Ultimately I don't see this as much of a Republican or Democrat issue as it is a regional issue.

Republicans who voted for this plan took a much higher risk against a much stronger opposition and have taken a lot more heat for their vote than the Democrats have. It was a courageous vote.

Moderator: How widespread is this kind of reaction -- that legislative Republicans are a roll-over-and-die outfit?

Finkbeiner: There were a lot of Republicans who were very frustrated over this, the Republican support. A lot of Republicans very frustrated -- I've been contacted by a lot of them -- but I think there's a distinction a lot of Republicans make between our general fund, which has been growing faster than inflation, and the gas tax, which is a user fee and has been falling behind inflation as cars get better miles to the gallon. Our per-vehicle-mile revenue has dropped dramatically while the cost of building roads has risen.

Moderator: If Dino Rossi were governor now instead of Christine Gregoire, would the transportation-tax plan, including a 9.5-cent increase in the gas tax, have passed the Legislature?

Finkbeiner: It's impossible to say. I think they probably wouldn't have seen a general fund tax increase, probably wouldn't have seen 12 percent growth in the general fund, and that would have made it easier to get support of the gas tax and it wouldn't have been as heavily weighted toward Seattle.

Albert, Olympia: Why is the gas tax money only going to the northern part of the state? Is this the governor paying back King County for the election?

Finkbeiner: (laughs) The northern part of the state unfortunately has significant transportation issues and congestion. But when you look at the dollars coming out of King County toward the gas tax, I don't believe it's higher than their getting back out of the plan.

James, Lacey: How is the State of Washington helping to resolve the possible military base closures? Also, does the state have a plan for the economy if Fort Lewis or McChord Air Force Base is closed?

Finkbeiner: If any of the major bases were closed, it would have a significant impact on the economy and we've been working together on a bipartisan basis with the Governor to make sure the bases stay open. It has been a very high priority for all legislators on both sides of the aisle.

Laura, Olympia: It has been said that because of the pressure of your caucus you voted no on HB 1515 in order to keep your leadership position. Having once voted to support a similar measure, do you really believe that gay people do not deserve protections from descrimination in business and housing transactions?

Finkbeiner: I believe that nobody should be discriminated against at all. However this bill I don't think was a very good way to ensure that. I also think there's danger in creating too many subclasses in anti-discrimination law. This bill would have created a new protected class, and ultimately there were some serious questions about whether that should be done. The state supreme court case may also have played into the timing of the bill. We'll have to take a hard look at that next year.

Moderator: What kind of civil rights protection do you think would be politically achievable?

Finkbeiner: Everyone is covered under the civil rights act. We're covered in a variety of ways from our race to our creed and our sex. I think that currently our law is protecting people. I also question the degree to which homosexuals currently are discriminated against.

Moderator: How strong is the religious right wing in your caucus?

Finkbeiner: There are a lot of people in my caucus with very strongly held beliefs about a lot of things and a lot of people have religion informing those beliefs on a range of issues from 1515 to the environment. I think people bring a variety of life experiences to every vote they take, so that's an impossible question to answer.

Linda, Olympia: Why didn't the Primary Election Date get moved to August?

Finkbeiner: Ultimately three reasons: Number 1, we thought the most important issue was fixing the problems discovered in this past election, and the Democrats decided to pass a partisan bill. We felt that should have been a higher priority. After that bill went through, I think there probably were enough votes to change that election date, but probably only by two or three weeks, not the four weeks. Democrats decided not to try and work for that solution.

Moderator: How did the shadow of Dino Rossi's election defeat in the governor's race and his subsequent legal challenge of Gov. Christine Gregoire's election, affect the tone and pace of legislative session?

Finkbeiner: The main effect was the problems we all discovered in this last election were highlighted. I think there was some defensiveness on the part of the Democrats, who were often the beneficiaries of those problems, to change those things. We need to do everything we can in this state to make sure that only eligible voters are voting, and there was extreme reluctance by the Democrats to ensure that.

Steven, Moses Lake: If it is shown that Christine Gregoire knowingly accepted a stolen post as Governor, would you be in favor of a lengthy prison sentence?

Finkbeiner: (laughs) Um, how do I answer that question? I think the courts are going to have to decide what the correct outcome is and the correct penalties are if any, but I don't believe the governor is personally responsible for the problems in King County. I think the governor could have worked harder to address some of these problems, but I don't think she's responsible personally.

Fred, Olympia: Why is there not more control over the funds given to higher education? Specifically the money wasted at The Evergreen State College on their road appropriation to turn a good road into a bike path.

Finkbeiner: I'm not aware of that specific situation. All I can say is that I'm hoping our performance audits help us all get our money's worth out of the investments we make in transportation.

Jon, Adelanto, Calif.: I read about all the tax increases the socialists (Democrats) passed, and I wonder, what spending was cut to balance the budget? Here in California, there are enough Republicans to block tax increases.

Finkbeiner: Unfortunately, here in Washington there are not enough Republicans, so almost no spending cuts were made and there were significant additions. Ultimately it grew by 12 percent and still shorted our pensions contributions where we're basically borrowing from our kids to fund this year's operating budget because there were no tough decisions made.

Moderator: Do you expect to cash in politically because of the way Democrats handled taxes?

Finkbeiner: I believe that good policy is good politics. The worst decision in this budget was to grow it so quickly, so much faster than inflation. If the Democrats believe that "sin" taxes, which this year includes dying, are a good way to fund the budget, we should have written a budget that doesn't grow so quickly and we should have cut property taxes. We were unable to make long-term investments in bringing down state debt. I think that's bad policy.

Moderator: Your caucus was able to lock up as a voting bloc on the primary election issue but did not appear inclined to do that on gas taxes. Were there other issues where Republicans didn't have a party line position this session?

Finkbeiner: I tried to operate the caucus on the basis of increasing opportunity in this state by growing our economy and to increase the number of jobs, and those were the issues where we locked up, on the unemployment issue, on the tax increases to grow the general fund, when we looked at the pay-or-play system, when we looked at the retro fund, which was essentially a partisan attempt to hurt small repub businesses, but there were very few votes where we more-or-less "locked up," other than the economic areas.

Moderator: What do you think of the job Gov. Christine Gregoire did in her first months of office -- especially near the end where she exerted her leadership leverage to break loose the transportation tax package and get it passed?

Finkbeiner: I think that largely the Governor did not lead on many of the issues that are most important, dealing with the business climate. Unfortunately she did not step forward to advocate for a balanced budget, unfortunately she did not step forward to stop the rollbacks in the unemployment reforms or the increases in the cost of health care. And probably she will sign all the bills that reach her desk.

Moderator: What vetoes do you think she should make?

Finkbeiner: The governor has pretty much made it clear that (the bills on) many of the issues we think are important to this state, I do not expect that she will veto any of those. She intends to be supportive of most, if not all, of those.

I'd love to see her reduce the growth in the state budget and the Legislature can come back and make greater investments in our pension fund obligations, but I'm not holding my breath.

Moderator: One last question. Do you think Dino will win in court?

Finkbeiner: Not having a legal background, I can't say. When I try to guess the answer to those, I don't have enough information. I believe there were some very serious problems in this last election that are being highlighted over and over again and we'll have to wait and see how the judge deals with those.

Moderator: All right. Thanks a lot for your time today. Our invited guest for a chat at 10:45 a.m. Wednesday is Greg Devereaux, the director of the Washington Federation of State Employees.